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alwana
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Proton
Gen 2
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

11 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2007 :  5:29:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been looking for these info but just can not find it.

I have a Proton Gen2:-

a) What system is suitable for this car
Mixer type or Sequential system

b) What are Good or reliable brands for these type available here

c) What are the must have item to work well for the system

d) Which installer are the main distributor for these brands.

e) What are the must have safety item for the system

f) what is the ball park figure for the convertion job

From what I can gather there are a few workshop that can install on the Basis " Can try lah and see if the system work for your car". To gamble 6.8K on the above statement and safety of my family is just too much risk I can take.

So experts can you revise the info for the beginner section to avoid the "try and error phase" that you all when through. I strongly believe it is the lack of info that is slowing the number of NGV user in Malaysia.
Searching the local net for info is also useless. Have you seen some of the site? It is just promoting the product they have but not mentioning it is for what, suitable for which car model and the basic system spec (just product or item included in the package).
If I am wrong, please accept my applogy in advance and can someone point me on the right direction and I will be on my way.

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abu raiyan
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
Waja 1.6 (A)/ Iswara 1.5M
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

204 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2007 :  08:47:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
just my personal view...

I saw many waja campro with NGV sticker but so far no one for Gen2. I believe that both are using same engine i.e. campro. Thus, gen2 also can be installed with ngv... i guess.

Macammana nak cari installer ngv?

1) Kumpul semua maklumat yang berkaitan. Dapatkan sedikit sebanyak mengenai maklumat Apa itu NGV? dll...
2) Cuba fahamkan sedikit konsep dan terminologi yg ada dlm teknologi ngv.
3) Download senarai ngv workshop dari http://www.mymesra.com.my/index.php?ch=mmc_pns_misc&pg=mmc_pns_misc_miscs&ac,37&tpt=mmc (tapi bilangan workshop sekarang telah bertambah... dan byk yang tidak dimasukkan dalam list tu)
4) Cuba tanya seberapa byk workshop yg ada dan buat perbandingan.
5) Tanya pendapat mereka2 yang arif dan ada pengalaman dalam penggunaan ngv.
6) now... the decision is yours...


hopefully it will help and guide u.

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alwana
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Proton
Gen 2
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

11 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2007 :  5:58:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So far semasa you convert ke NGV ada problem tak? Dari ShoutBox problem seperti Azmi kena macam kes biasa berlaku sekarang. Senarai workshop tu saya pernah try. So far bila saya contact company seperti Trackxxxxx dan ABxx , answer seperti di perolehi.

Unit ada X stock , Pasang lebih kurang dua hari, Kerata Gen2 , boleh, kita boleh try, kalau ada trouble sikit boleh tuning. Don't worry.

Bunyi macam nak buat testing haram aje. Adakah industri NGV di Malaysia just try and error, Black art or try at your own risk. Tak ada specialist ke yang boleh di referkan, ada klas untuk new or potential NGV user?

Dari advice kepada potential NGV user = pandai pandailah cari sendiri. Clue macam inilah yang saya risau. Macam semua NGV user ada face problem.

Anyway, Thank you for the advice.It has made me think again on my action. Maybe being cautious in moving into NGV is what all the NGV "orang lama" are trying to say.

I like the advice below
5) Tanya pendapat mereka2 yang arif dan ada pengalaman dalam penggunaan ngv.

I will try this.





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abu raiyan
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
Waja 1.6 (A)/ Iswara 1.5M
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

204 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  09:29:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
maybe other forumers can give their opinion here. Me myself, not too sure whom to refer to install ngv in your car. But, if u browse thru this forum, baca pengalaman orang yang dah guna ngv (at least 5-6 months macam saya), semuanya pernah mengalami masalah. Dari masalah2 yang kecil yang boleh selesai hingga kepada sebesar-besar masalah yang mengakibatkan user fade-up dan dismantle ngv unit...

Pada pandangan peribadi saya, setiap masalah ada jalan penyelesaiannya dan bergantung kepada semangat seseorang yang bakal guna ngv. BUt, again is up to individual...

Tak tahulah salah siapa, ngv di dunia lain dah berkembang dengan pesat... hatta di negara dunia ketiga pun... tapi di malaysia... perkembangannya mmg kurang memberangsangkan...

p/s i pernah rekomen member pasang kat satu kedai ni, kereta dia mmg ok dan takde masalah. CUma yang i rasa segan, janji tempoh siap pemasangan asyik delay.... susah nak judge installer kan. Sometimes, workmanship bagus... tapi janji tak ditepati... ada pulak tu yang suka amik kesempatan... auta je lebih...

anyway, secara peribadi tak rugi kita install ngv ....



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abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  09:37:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alwana...bro the answer it is depend on type of car that you are using...FYI most of the Malaysian car that NGV are wira,iswara, perdana and waja..that why even big company like rackxxxxx dan ABxx will said "kalau ada trouble sikit boleh tuning. Don't worry." it is because those big company also takder experience converting Gen2. I'm also already use the NGV for more than 6month ++ and every time i refill i'm not seeing any gen2 refill NGV with me..even pajero very selalu nampak..the best way is to find a workshop that have experience converting Waja campro engine since the gen2 shared the same engine and ecu..most of the time tuning and wiring tapping will be the issue if the installer don't have experience with some type of engine...but your gen2 campro engine is well known for most of the installer.


From the info your gen2 is using plastic manifol..so i think the sequential type is the best because mixer type for injection some time create backfire if improper tuning..mean some time the gas explode inside the inlet manifol..maybe long run your manifol will pecah....
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akastria
New Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2006
Perodua
Kancil 850
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

38 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  09:46:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe yours would be the 1st ever Gen2-NGV in Malaysia! in fact, 1st in the world! haha..
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alwana
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Proton
Gen 2
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

11 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  11:37:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank for the support. Anyone see a Gen2 at the NGV refill station please try to get some info from him. There are many question i wish to ask that lucky son of a gun.
I am hoping my Gen2 is not the first ever World Class Case study on a Gen2 convertion to NGV. Can write a technical paper on it. talk to a few Waja Campro NGV at the Jalan Tampin Petronas refill station , but they said the car came with it from the show room already install. So did not get much info from them. ( Think they are only 2 of them in Negeri Sembilan)

Anyone has info on this installer track record. SURIA Professional Sdn. Bhd. located in Bangi Industrial park or something like it.

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akastria
New Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2006
Perodua
Kancil 850
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

38 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  11:50:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AB** has opened 1 workshop there...its quite near to bangi country homes tol, but i'm not sure whether the shop bares the same name...
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jayjayfar
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Proton


Borneo

1 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  12:44:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,

my waja was delivered to me in oct. It almost hit the warranty milage coz i travel extensively from KL to JB. My company also plan to install all 5 units of our waja campro with NGV to save cost. Again the same problem occurs dont know where to install. Have been to afew installers but also get the same answer.Last month i went to proton and i saw hundreds of waja campro being send to airport limo. Someone told me that a fleet operator will never operates on petrol coz its not cost effectve. Anyone knows who is installing the waja with NGV?

I saw an article a few months ago but im not sure, but if im not mistaken dr Xander of momogas did mention that he has someone who knows abt installing a campro.....If you r around dr xander pls help us
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admin
Forum Admin

NGV:Yes
Since:Dec 2005
Proton
Wira 1.5A
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

639 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  12:57:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi jayjayfar,
Check your email I have sent you Dr Xander Contact


Cheers,
Philip Ng
http://philipngngv.blogspot.com
Tips: Click on the Active Topics or Subscribe for Notification to view the latest posting
Invite your friends to Join NGV Community Today!
You can Attach picture in posting refer http://www.ngvcommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=280
http://philipngmalaysia.blogspot.com - Amazing Discovery Blog of Philip Ng
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abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  2:39:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
last time during my conversion, i saw one waja campro taxi doinginstallation at traXXXXX...and my ex-neighbour also do waja the coversion at traxxxx dunno if mitsu engine or campro ...
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hsbak
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Dec 2006
Proton
Waja 1.6A
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

11 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2007 :  4:42:41 PM  Show Profile  Click to see hsbak's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Jayjayfar.. I suggest you read comments from people on NGV Experience in the forum. Lots of experience from people installing NGV. My Waja is using Sequential Kit. I know who the Installer is. Those fleet of Campros you saw can only use Sequential Kit. Check my experience on installation I had with my waja under the NGV Experience forum. It's good if you contact Dr.X to get more info. He'll definitely advice you. Good guy. Good luck man. You'll definitely need it. Cheers
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motorentity
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon


Malaysia

1 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2007 :  6:35:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alwana, i saw a Gen2 NGV at Batu Cave Petronas station near Giant hypermarket. Yellow colour Gen2 park at petronas gas station. u can go there to try ur luck...
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Avanz24
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
1.3
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

6 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  12:21:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wahhh..sorry i'm a new member here...
just nak tanya, ada tak Avanza 1.3 yg install NGV...
sebab i ada call one installer kat Bangi "ABxx" dia kata boleh install...
but nak tanya boleh fit ke kat bonnet belakang tu?
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abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  2:10:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
so far ada dengar tapi tak pernah nampak lagi..tapi guna sequential system pasal nak utilise vvti features
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Avanz24
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
1.3
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

6 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  2:36:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
is it true boleh pasal lah... ;-)
so kena note pasal guna System Sequential...
nanti boleh tanya bengkel tersebut depa nak guna system apa?
thanks Abgabas..
any other info about Avanza with NGV that i should now...
pls let me know so senang nak discuss dgn bengkel tu nanti...
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abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  2:53:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
pakai mixer type pun rasa ok juga pasal ada tgk thailand punya avanza,camry dengan innova install..tapi dlm gambo di internet laa...tak tau laa kalau run cun jugak mcm guna sequential
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admin
Forum Admin

NGV:Yes
Since:Dec 2005
Proton
Wira 1.5A
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

639 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  2:59:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
eagle7 also driving Avanza and he has done some research on it as well. Maybe when he login, he can comment things that you need to take care of.



Cheers,
Philip Ng
http://philipngngv.blogspot.com
Tips: Click on the Active Topics or Subscribe for Notification to view the latest posting
Invite your friends to Join NGV Community Today!
You can Attach picture in posting refer http://www.ngvcommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=280
http://philipngmalaysia.blogspot.com - Amazing Discovery Blog of Philip Ng
Search the Web with NGV Search Engine at the TOP
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matkay
New Member

NGV:Gathering information
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

32 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  3:52:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit matkay's Homepage  Reply with Quote
proton Gen-2 campro engine uses EMS700 (engine management system) which is the OEM harness from Siemen VDO. These pin assignments coming from engine to ECU, perhap you can get from Proton or anyone that willing to share the pin assignment because this is confidential as Proton claimed but I am sure your installer can find the pin number. The simplest way is to try one by one, he most important is ignition coil and injection. the injection use sequential method is preferable rather that mixer because in engine view there is no different with waja campro except the pin assigment. New vehicle new engine harness,,thats how siemens make money.

then find the regulator to step down the gas, and piping and the rest you can read thru this ngvcommunity.com forum.

matkay : http://ecumaster.blogspot.com


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eagle7
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2006
Proton
Iswara 1.3
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

149 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2007 :  7:37:20 PM  Show Profile  Click to see eagle7's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Avanz24

is it true boleh pasal lah... ;-)
so kena note pasal guna System Sequential...
nanti boleh tanya bengkel tersebut depa nak guna system apa?
thanks Abgabas..
any other info about Avanza with NGV that i should now...
pls let me know so senang nak discuss dgn bengkel tu nanti...



Found out from one workshop they did convert Avanza before, but not sure what System that they used. They installed the cylinder at small cargo area. So I believe the cylinder must be very small and the travel distance will be very limited. To install bigger cylinder(s) then you may need to remove your third seat.

Before convert your car at a particular workshop, better do some survey first. Check out their workmanship, equipment, chat with their customer for their after sales service etc. Give yourself more time to survey, if possible survey as many workshops as you can. Just to be sure your investment is safeguarded.

I heard Nag?????? not bad. You may want to consider to drop by to their workshop to check it out.


Edited by - eagle7 on 11/01/2007 7:39:04 PM
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Avanz24
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
1.3
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

6 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2007 :  2:46:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eagle7

quote:
Originally posted by Avanz24

is it true boleh pasal lah... ;-)
so kena note pasal guna System Sequential...
nanti boleh tanya bengkel tersebut depa nak guna system apa?
thanks Abgabas..
any other info about Avanza with NGV that i should now...
pls let me know so senang nak discuss dgn bengkel tu nanti...



Found out from one workshop they did convert Avanza before, but not sure what System that they used. They installed the cylinder at small cargo area. So I believe the cylinder must be very small and the travel distance will be very limited. To install bigger cylinder(s) then you may need to remove your third seat.

Before convert your car at a particular workshop, better do some survey first. Check out their workmanship, equipment, chat with their customer for their after sales service etc. Give yourself more time to survey, if possible survey as many workshops as you can. Just to be sure your investment is safeguarded.

I heard Nag?????? not bad. You may want to consider to drop by to their workshop to check it out.




thanks for the advice...
i have been talking with this one workshop,
they say that the small cargo area can be fitted with 62L tank...
they claimed that they have done that..
what u mean with " Nag????? not bad" is it a workshop?
how to contact them?

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eagle7
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2006
Proton
Iswara 1.3
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

149 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2007 :  8:12:57 PM  Show Profile  Click to see eagle7's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Avanz24

thanks for the advice...
i have been talking with this one workshop,
they say that the small cargo area can be fitted with 62L tank...
they claimed that they have done that..
what u mean with " Nag????? not bad" is it a workshop?
how to contact them?




If the small cargo area can fit in 62L tank, then that is amazing. Tonite I will do some measurement about the diameter of this 62L tank and also measure the available space at this small cargo area.

I don't have contact number for Nag?????, hope someone in this forum will PM you the number. I believe at least one member from this forum is lining up for their car to be converted. Last I heard he is impressed with their workmanship as compare to other workshop for Sequential Fuel Injection System.

If the small cargo space can fit in 62L of tank, then I can start saving now. hahaha

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eagle7
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2006
Proton
Iswara 1.3
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

149 Posts

Posted - 14/01/2007 :  1:59:56 PM  Show Profile  Click to see eagle7's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Hi Avanz24,

The diameter of 62L cylinder is +/-13". I don't think it could nicely fit into the small cargo area unless smaller cylinder is used.




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Avanz24
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
1.3
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

6 Posts

Posted - 15/01/2007 :  08:48:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thanks Eagle7.
i have to ask back the installer are they sure about the 62L tank....

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alwana
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Proton
Gen 2
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

11 Posts

Posted - 15/01/2007 :  3:11:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seem I manage to track down the NGV SIGS Proton Gen2. He manage to run the system without any TAP and the best thing is the refuel point is next to the Patrol tank inlet. The system he uses is from Brazil and the workshop is in Bangi.
According to him , the work shop followed the NGV safety guideline as in this forum. I am happy, that a workshop have manage to figure out the Gen2 ECU (EMS700) system. Anyway , my Gen2 will not be the first as I found a pioneer (actual test subject).
I am still waiting a reply from him if the workshop will do the Puspakom and JPJ process or will charge you for it. Tank size is 55L.
Now the next step is finding the funding for my NGV project. He's averaging about 0.06 sen/ km. About 66% saving compared to petrol. The system only kick in at 2500 rpm and above and will switch to Petrol if running anything less. Is that normal for the SIGS?
Hidden Expert, any advice before I enter Second Stage (fund management mode) as the workshop will only accept cash? I will have to visit the site to determine workshop quality and see if any angry customer return to the workshop. So have to take leave and observe the workshop actual CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index).

Edited by - alwana on 15/01/2007 3:23:14 PM
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azmi3388
New Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2006
Perodua
Kembara 1.3
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

39 Posts

Posted - 16/01/2007 :  12:18:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sdra Alwana - don't know lah samada ini nak kata advice atau tidak ( others tolong betulkan jika saya salah). maklumat ini saya perolihi samada dari writeup dalam forum ini ataupun advice mereka-mereka yang saya anggap pakar / senior dalam NGV ni. U kena confirm / tanya dengan installer NGV yg u pilih.

1. Right spark plug
2. Spark plug cable mesti original
3. Realignment tappet - tappet adjustment
4. Tanpa TAB - tappet mungkin akan misalignment pada setiap sekitar 8,000 - 15,000 KM
5. Minyak engin - 15W50
6. Perlu pasang kipas tambahan
7. Petrol mesti sekurang2nya ada sekitar RM30/= dlm tangki untuk kereta EFI.

1 - 4 - untuk elakkan back fire
5 & 6 - untuk penyejukan engin. Guna NGV engin lebih panas.
7 - tak sure kalau tak silap something to do dengan petrol pump ??.

tq

AZMI

AZMI@$
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abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 16/01/2007 :  11:08:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
as for no 7..petrol pump need cooling abd lubricant..and the cooling and lubricant only available from the petrol..if too low on fuel, the fuel pump will kong faster...
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NGVInfo
Moderator

NGV:Yes


Malaysia

185 Posts

Posted - 16/01/2007 :  12:35:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear All,

You can install a device called Petrol Cut unit, which stop the petrol pump while operating in gas. This device has been introduced to vehicle owners who are suffered from a petrol-pump burnout. The burnout is always the result of owner running dry in their petrol tank.


Kindly ask Admin for the contact if you feel that you want such extra protection.

Regards,
NGV Information Team
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lynnmdasuki
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2007
Proton
wira1.5a/b
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

6 Posts

Posted - 24/10/2007 :  10:54:41 AM  Show Profile  Send lynnmdasuki a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
A very much newbie here...
Am using wira 1.5 injection and 2 weeks with NGV so far, problems such as, masa brake enjin mati, gear 2 jerking gila, ada bunyi meletup masa gas abis, nak switch to petrol. After dah repair, kalu slow sikit after speeding, enjin mati...

Am not very tech savvy, but learning about all the terms of NGV world VERY SLOWly...


and, DO I HAVE TO SWITCH OFF the gas to run on petrol if the gas has finished?... can i just ON the gas SWITCH if running on petrol mode (if no gas)

Hungry for advice!!!

Edited by - lynnmdasuki on 02/11/2007 10:33:57 AM
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leo fiber
Junior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:May 2007
NAZA
citra gs
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

94 Posts

Posted - 24/10/2007 :  11:46:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by lynnmdasuki
[
Installed in Melaka. Would like to know my installer is actually licensed/registered or not. A workshop in Jasin. Can anybody please advise me on that?

and, DO I HAVE TO SWITCH OFF the gas to run on petrol if the gas has finished?... can i just ON the gas SWITCH if running on petrol mode (if no gas)



HI LYNN ,


ARE UR CAR USING MIXER OR SEQUENTIAL SYSTEM ? WHAT IS THE BRAND OF

KIT N TYPE OF CYLINDER ?



AS I'M USING SEQUENTIAL SYSTEM ONCE GAS FINISHED IT WILL BLINK WITH

SOUND N U NEED TO SWITCH INTO PETROL MODE UNLESSS U CAN STAND THE

NOISE ....... N SOUND .......



B4 SWITCHED TO NGV I HAD EXPERIENCE USING PROTON 1.5I USING MIXER

WHENEVER GAS FINISHED , U NEED TO SWITCH INTO PETROL MODE IF NOT

U CAN'T DRIVE THE CAR N ENGINE DIED OFF ........



LYNN , PLS GO BACK TO UR INSTALLER N SOLVE THE PROBLEM


DON'T CRACK UR HEAD LET THE SPECIALIST DO THEIR WORK ............




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lynnmdasuki
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2007
Proton
wira1.5a/b
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

6 Posts

Posted - 29/10/2007 :  12:15:47 PM  Show Profile  Send lynnmdasuki a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
TQVM Leo...

problem is, sent it many times for tuning... OK for one day, but after that, enjin mati jugak but not as frequent as b4 sent for tuning..

New problem however occurring:

Oil signal at dashboard menyala bila oil is low even when i am on GAS...

Advice?

Am waiting for the installer 2 pick my car today...

Will ask him whether my injection car using sequential or mixer...
NGV for DUMMY... My topic should be...

Edited by - lynnmdasuki on 02/11/2007 10:27:54 AM
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