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 NGV hot and dry?
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clkong
Advanced Member

NGV:Yes
NAZA
Ria
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

695 Posts

Posted - 25/09/2006 :  12:21:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what i know, NGV burn very hot compare to petrol. The gas that enter the engine also burn very dry. Is not like petrol that have some lubrication that help to lubricate the valve and valve seat. After some long uses of NGV, our engine might fail due to Valve Seat Recession (VSR). Is like hit a bar of chocolate with hot hammer. Does anyone out there that have solution of this problem. This a company in Australia by the name of Flashlube with claim that can solve this problem.

This is what they say :

Flashlube Valve Saver Fluid is a concentrated Lead Replacement Additive formulated to minimise Valve Seat Recession (VSR) in LPG, CNG & Petrol Fuelled Vehicles.

This proven formula also contains a combination of additives that cleans fuel injectors & fuel systems, increases fuel economy and reduces emissions.


Flashlube Valve Saver Fluid is safe to use in vehicles fitted with catalytic convertors & oxygen sensors.



Flashlube Valve Saver Fluid is essential for use in LPG, CNG and petrol powered vehicles, and can be directly injected by using the Flashlube Automatic Lubrication Kit. It cleans & lubricates the upper cylinder & creates a protective barrier between the valve & valve seat, keeping valves & seats cool


here's the link
http://www.flashlube.com.au/store/page.pl?id=214

also look at their test result at
http://www.flashlube.com.au/store/page.pl?id=212

and
http://www.flashlube.com.au/images/Valve_Seat_Recession_Graph2.pdf

I did email to them last week but so far have not received andy reply them them yet.
Anyone uses this product before? anyone have comment on this. Anyone can bring in this to Malaysia so they can sell in our NGV community's virtual mall.

Sponsored Links!


Masterpiece
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2006
Mercedes-Benz
E220 masterpiece
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

130 Posts

Posted - 28/09/2006 :  5:39:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To Lubricate and clean the valves is a good way to provide damages and
cooling the engine.
Lubricants like Flashlube Valve Saver which is a lead replacement can be bought in Malaysia too with another brand name.
Have a look to http://www.redlineoil.com.my/
Dealers are stated too.


Sponsored Links!


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Harry
Advanced Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
Camry
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

692 Posts

Posted - 28/09/2006 :  5:52:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit Harry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Masterpiece, are you refering to the following:

Redline Lead Substitute

Prevents valve seat recession in vehicles designed to use leaded fuels. Red Line Lead Substitute prolongs the useful life of these engines, cleans carburetor deposits and injectors and will not damage catalytic converters. For racing, marine or off-road use only.

How much does it cost and how do U apply to the engine? How frequent do U need to apply the product?

My favourite websites:
http://swiftletfarming.blogspot.com/
http://harrykok.blogspot.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/be-a-millionaires-club

Edited by - Harry on 28/09/2006 6:01:34 PM
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Masterpiece
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2006
Mercedes-Benz
E220 masterpiece
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

130 Posts

Posted - 28/09/2006 :  7:56:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Comparing the advertising :Flashlube Valve Saver Fluid and Redline Lead Substitute,
it seems to be the same lubricant.
Flashlube Valve Saver Fluid can be done in the petrol and can be used as droplets (a small drop of liquid) in the carburator / injection inlet.
Europa prices are:
Flashlube droplets system Eur 49,=
Flashlube liquid Eur 12.75 a liter
Liquid use: in petrol mix is 1 liter Flashlube for 1000 liter petrol.
As droplet maybe each 15-30 minutes a drop.

Redline Lead Substitute is a liquid for petrol mix.
Why not make a liquid droplet system for Redline Lead Substitute with the same idea behind it.
or buy a Flushlube droplet system and refill it later with Redline Lead Substitute
There must always be pioneers to try out things otherwise nothing will change.
After I have convert my mercedes I will certainly go further with it and try out things like:
Special oil for LPE/Diesel, Better absorbing heat radiator, droplet system, maybe a oilcooler etc etc

Help our beloved car to make enviroment acceptable.
Arno
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NGVInfo
Moderator

NGV:Yes


Malaysia

185 Posts

Posted - 28/09/2006 :  10:45:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Arno,

Your Mercedes needs an additional blower fan. Kindly consider it as it will bring down the temperature faster. Masterpiece are fully electronically wired, operating Ohm-resistance communication. Heat is your worst enemy, the Masterpiece-slayer.

Anyway, we are so wonderfully happy that you guys are really helping us out to spread the good word about NGV Safety & Ethics too.drx





Regards,
NGV Information Team
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 30/09/2006 :  9:57:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hmm...can anybody explain this matter more easily for me to understand. I can't really follow...sorry.. i'm newbie
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Harry
Advanced Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
Camry
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

692 Posts

Posted - 30/09/2006 :  10:00:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Harry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aquaria, don't worry U are not the only who do not understand those beautiful NGV jargons. Just keep reading and get one technical dictionary beside U.

I wud say I am also lost !!!

My favourite websites:
http://swiftletfarming.blogspot.com/
http://harrykok.blogspot.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/be-a-millionaires-club
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Masterpiece
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2006
Mercedes-Benz
E220 masterpiece
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

130 Posts

Posted - 30/09/2006 :  10:13:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Before 1975 in the petrol was lead included.
With this lead the valves got lubricated.
After 1975 lead was banned.
Starting from that time manufacturars changed the engines.
The sealings (there where the valves are knocking on the motorhead) become harder.

NGV is very dry and the lubrication is almost zero.
So we are trying to find a solution how to get the valves lubricated.
A solution is there (Flashlube) only not in Malaysia available.
In Thailand there is a dealer too for flashlube, but the website is down ( I think it has to do with the coup on this moment).
The Import price could be reasonable if it is exported from Thailand

On this moment we are waiting on a reaction from the Australian dealer.
Test in Holland gives a good result, where you can buy this stuff almost by every conversion NGV specialist.

Will be continued
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clkong
Advanced Member

NGV:Yes
NAZA
Ria
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

695 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2006 :  1:21:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After one week, i have not received any news from Flashlube Australia. Maybe they already have a dealer for autside Australia market which located in Hong Kong and Thailand which we can get the lubricant from them.

This is another product that we can consider

http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productId=lpg

Nulon Valve Saver is formulated specifically to perform two functions in LP gas engines:

Firstly, it protects against valve seat recession (commonly known as VSR)
Secondly, it provides additional lubrication of top piston rings and valve seats.
Nulon LPG Valve Saver is the only product available in Australia that is totally dedicated to meeting the upper cylinder protection needs of LPG fuelled engines. Other products on the market are multi-purpose, for use in both petrol and LPG engines. The protection requirements are very different for both engine types, so how can one product perform adequately in both applications? The answer is simple it can't.

Nulon LPG Valve Saver provides maximum protection for minimum cost. It is ready for use in existing under-bonnet lubricator kits. If the lubricator kit is adjusted correctly, 1 litre of Nulon LPG Valve Saver should last from 7,000 to 10,000km.

LP gas enters the combustion chamber as a completely dry fuel. As a result it burns very much hotter than does petrol, which enters the combustion chamber as air and fine droplets of petrol. The petrol droplets provide a cooling effect. The increased operating temperature in the upper cylinder area of an LP gas engine is extremely harsh on valves, valve seats, valve guides and top piston rings.

Nulon LPG Valve Saver utilises the world's most up-to-date technology to protect against valve seat recession. The components used in Nulon LPG Valve Saver have been tested against Australian Standard AS4430.2-1999 and in that test proved to provide complete valve seat recession protection, which is the biggest concern in engines operating on LPG.

Nulon LPG Valve Saver is classified as non-hazardous, has no adverse effect on exhaust emissions, oxygen sensors and catalysts.

Benefits:

Reduces valve seat burning and wear
Helps lubricate piston rings
Prevents valve seat recession (VSR)
Helps to clean upper cylinder deposits
Provides better valve sealing
Helps dissipate high temperature from exhaust valves
Cost effective
Tested and proven
Reduces the likelihood of costly cylinder head repairs
Will not harm catalytic converters or oxygen sensors
No adverse effect on exhaust emissions



I email them just now and hope to get their reply as soon as possibe.

From the online store
http://autoonecai.cart.net.au/details/340300.html
we can see that Nulon Valve saver is much cheaper than the Flashlube.

Nulon Valve Saver AUS 17.25 per L
Flashlube AUD 30.95 per L

I try to make an online order but the tranportation charges will be too expensive. Maybe all of us in this community can place an order in the virtual mall and than buy in big quantity?
Can someone here can help?
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eagle7
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2006
Proton
Iswara 1.3
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

149 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2006 :  7:43:29 PM  Show Profile  Click to see eagle7's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Today visited a spare-part shop to buy engine oil and filter for my periodic 5,000KM service, the taukie recommended me this semi-syntectic engine oil which cost RM65 only. When I check on the product discription, it state "Super clean formula - ideal for LPG engines". Do you thing this is the type of engine oil that we are looking around for our NGV car? It got donut chop somemore.








Here the Importer details:-
Borneo Technical Co. (M) S/B
No. 4 (Lot 89) Jalan U1/21A, Seksyen U1,
Hicom Glenmarie Park,
40150 Shah Alarm, Selangor Darul Ehsan,
Tel: 03-55691228 Fax: 03-55692233
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NGVInfo
Moderator

NGV:Yes


Malaysia

185 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  12:52:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear All,

The heat tolerance for this Super engine oil is 10W 40, where it should read as 10W 50. The difference between 40 and 50 represents the heat temperature tolerance. In fact, 50 is better.

Go to any Caltex station, you will find the Havoline Engine oil that read 'Gas-Fuel - natural gas and LPG........' at the back of the 4 liter carton bottle. Mystery solved. drx

Regards,
NGV Information Team
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  08:58:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
so, in summary, we should change the type of lubricant oil after we use NGV? is it? so for me, now I'm using standard semi sythetic petronas lubricant oil...Do you think i need to change other lubricant oil such as the what the Mr NGVInfo propose i.e. Havoline Engine Oil??? and if it recommended, how much it cost? thank you...
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NGVInfo
Moderator

NGV:Yes


Malaysia

185 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  10:45:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Aquaria,

Kindly change your engine lubricant as well as your Automatic/Manual Gear Oil. Unknown to you, the heat from NGV-combustion will damage your engine. We already have on victim, and he is Mr Philip Ng. His auto gearbox is replaced as it have burnt out.

The Petronas semi-syn is at 10W 40 specs, where we should be using 15W 50. The marking of 50 is the higher ability to tolerate extreme engine heat.

For Havoline, Caltex sells it at the station. There seems to be so kind of promnotion with free gift these day. Look at the back of the carton bottle...and you will see the magical word 'natural gas engine'.

Philip changed to 'potong-kereta' gearbox at RM1,200. It is surely cheaper to buy engine oil.


Regards,
NGV Information Team
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abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  11:22:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah my gear oil also need to be change much frequence, last time can last 40k now 20k already hard to change gear after long drive..

BTW I read about shell mineral oil on their website and they also said that they oil are suitable for LPG..but now i'm using shell semi should be better than mineral..so far so good...use it for my turbo car for more than 4 years now...no problem...as long as the grade more than 50 should be ok...now using 15W50...


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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  1:14:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NGVInfo

Dear Aquaria,

Kindly change your engine lubricant as well as your Automatic/Manual Gear Oil. Unknown to you, the heat from NGV-combustion will damage your engine. We already have on victim, and he is Mr Philip Ng. His auto gearbox is replaced as it have burnt out.

The Petronas semi-syn is at 10W 40 specs, where we should be using 15W 50. The marking of 50 is the higher ability to tolerate extreme engine heat.

For Havoline, Caltex sells it at the station. There seems to be so kind of promnotion with free gift these day. Look at the back of the carton bottle...and you will see the magical word 'natural gas engine'.

Philip changed to 'potong-kereta' gearbox at RM1,200. It is surely cheaper to buy engine oil.




So what type of Lub Oil u propose me to use, Is the petronas lub oil have the spec for this? if yes, what type of petronas lub oil? fully sythetic? coz i still do my lub oil services at Proton Edar Serv Centre. And the gear oil, what type should i use? any recommended brand (please quote the price if u have)...Cos i plan to change the gear oil this weekend...

p/s thank you all for sharing knowledge.....

Edited by - aquaria on 05/10/2006 1:18:06 PM
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  1:23:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I found that Petronas also have the 15W 50 Syntium 1000SM...is this lub suit for my engine? Plus it recommended 10k service instead of 5k serv....can i follow the recomdd serv interval? 10k serv (only change the oil filter on every 5k)..any affect on the engine?
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  1:32:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ooops, correction, the petrnos lub oil i use now is 800 which is the spec is 15W 50..so it means that for this time i'm using the correct lub oil is it???

p/s what type of transmission should i use, the spec please....
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clkong
Advanced Member

NGV:Yes
NAZA
Ria
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

695 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2006 :  2:27:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wow....this is getting interesting. Now even the transmission box also will damage due to NGV....emmmmmmmmmm...maybe we need to add in a oil cooler box for the Auto transmission. Get a secound hand oil cooler box from the chop chop shop (around RM150), than get it install to our car for about RM100.....problem solve.
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2006 :  9:34:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mr clkong, what u mean by oil coller box?

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NGVInfo
Moderator

NGV:Yes


Malaysia

185 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2006 :  11:20:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Aquaria,

When you drive your car, the gears (gearing mechanisms in the gearbox) are turning around depending on your engine speed. The speed of these gears create torque, but they generate enormous heat too. In fact, your gearbox is hotter than your engine block. But engine blocks are water-cooled. Most gearboxes do not have any cooling system.

CLKONG is suggesting that you add a cooling system for your gearbox. Commonly, racing car uses gearbox cooler to maintain top-speed and torque performance.

By adding a gear box oil cooler box, it is like you have a radiator (gear oil-based) for your gearbox. The concept is similar to a radiator for engine block, but this oil radiator is smaller in size.

However so, we are confident that using the right gear oil grade (Toyota SP-4) and oil change every 30,000km is sufficient. This advice is, of course, suitable to all average NGV user. For NGV Racers, oil cooler box may be better.drx



Regards,
NGV Information Team
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clkong
Advanced Member

NGV:Yes
NAZA
Ria
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

695 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  02:07:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We even can use this oil cooler for the engine oil but the cost will be very expensive. This is due to extra high pressure piping, engine filter converter (where the engine oil being chanel from the oil filter to the radiator) and maybe oil pressure meter(needed to check if there's any pressure drop)
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Harry
Advanced Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Toyota
Camry
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

692 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  10:28:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit Harry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Guys, I think we are taking this heating matter too far.

Why don't we get one person to summarise the discussion and provide the ultimate recomendation. I believe Dr X can do that.

Well we now knows that there is a heating problem when we use NGV. When this happened there are many engines parts will be affected.

What we required is to ensure that U change the engine and gearbox oil to something that have higher temperature rating.

During car servicing make sure U give proper instruction to your workshop foreman to use the right engine and gearbox oil.

If U desire to prevent any damage to your valve seat U need to get valve seat lubricant that helps in seat damage.



My favourite websites:
http://swiftletfarming.blogspot.com/
http://harrykok.blogspot.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/be-a-millionaires-club
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  3:23:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oohh..ok thanks..but one thing 1 want to knwo, the grade for trasnmission oil, is it ok for me to use the grade 80/90? as far as i know, this is the best grade for transmisn oil, better shifting gear..and hopefully it is suitable for NGV user..
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clkong
Advanced Member

NGV:Yes
NAZA
Ria
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

695 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2006 :  11:22:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agree with Harry here. I think some of the member here are worry that NGV might damage their engine. We install NGV bacause we want to have some saving but if there is a damage, than we have end up spanding more.
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genie47
Junior NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Chevrolet
Aveo sedan 1.4L DOHC F14D3
(Fuel Injection)

Singapore

52 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2006 :  5:31:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just use your regular engine oil. There is no need to go up to 50wt. Most important now is that the oil has to be low ash. API SM, ILSAC G$ rated engine oils are already very low in ash content.

If temperature tolerance is your main concern, use a synthetic oil. If you still want enhance the fuel economy, keep it at 10W30 at most.

We are GM. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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genie47
Junior NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Chevrolet
Aveo sedan 1.4L DOHC F14D3
(Fuel Injection)

Singapore

52 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2006 :  5:32:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
clkong,

Don't add in the oil cooler. More hoses, more lines = more complicated = potiential for leaks. A situation more precarious than before.

We are GM. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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genie47
Junior NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Chevrolet
Aveo sedan 1.4L DOHC F14D3
(Fuel Injection)

Singapore

52 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2006 :  5:35:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Something is amiss here. How can the transmission be damaged when it is isolated from the engine?

This does not make sense. The engine is the most harsh environment a lube will face. Combustion products and heat will degrade engine oil.

ATF in a slush box only faces extreme pressure and shear.

This does not add up.

We are GM. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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genie47
Junior NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Chevrolet
Aveo sedan 1.4L DOHC F14D3
(Fuel Injection)

Singapore

52 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2006 :  5:48:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMHO, this thing about damage is highly overrrated.

No doubt CNG has higher combustion temperatures, today's engine lubes are far better than the ones mechanics have come to know.

BTW, all this talk about oil cooler does not add up. Even climate does not add up. An engine generates tremendous heat. Not to the level of a star but it is effectively cooled by the cooling system of the car. Thus even though climate is a factor, it does not contribute more to the heat already generated by the engine. So the lube should still survive.

Now what should worry CNG users is oil loss. Again, if your lube is a quality synthetic lube, you should not suffer what most would call "sacrificed to the NOACK gods" If there is lube loss would be caused by leaks.

I would advise against using 50wt lubes. A 15W40 should be the highest one should go. Thicker oil is already proven to generate more heat than thinner lubes. I myself use 5W30 for my petrol fueled car. I will most likely up the ante to 10W30 but no more with CNG.

So the final factor should be the cooling system. Most cars have very efficient cooling systems. So keeping it tip top is the best option. Using colder plugs to effect this heat transfer also helps.

We are GM. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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zoharitan
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Planning to install soon
Proton
Waja 1.6 Mitsubishi
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

4 Posts

Posted - 19/11/2007 :  7:30:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
where are u guys? i think alll of u should reactive the discussion. it useful especially to tthoose people plan to install the ngv system.
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aquaria
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Aug 2006
Proton
WIRA SE
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

119 Posts

Posted - 19/11/2007 :  8:50:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we still here..only thing me are now active as before as at my new workplace i dun hv any internet access.. So it make me hard to online now.. by the way,... this discussin in regards with heat are just our opinion.. It is true, ngv genereta more heats.. thats why u have to take more care on ur radiator system, ur engine oil.. but in general not much problem occur since i install ngv on my car... go install ur ngv now before the kit price go up again....
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tony5050
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Nov 2007
BMW
Mini Cooper
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

195 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2008 :  12:13:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hi everyone,

i've just had my Perdana V6 running with NGV for about 2 months now and has joined this forum less then few hours ago. Well, very infomative forum and it makes me realise alot of potential problems if cares are not taken properly.
back to the topic of having much higher combustion chamber temperature burning NGV, how much higher, some said 7times higer...ok, i will try this personally and shall come back with some feedback.
I still have those gauges from Defi for my previous GTR at home, will get the mechanic to fix the Exhaust, oil, and water temperature back into my car as soon as i've got time. Let's see wht are the results. Although it will not reflect the actual chamber temperature, but we can always see the relative results...cheers!

CNG, way to cleaner and cheaper energy!!
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