NGV Community Forum
NGV Community Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ | Photo Gallery | Vote | Shopping

Choose your language translation:
 Recommend Us to your Friend!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Ask me anything about NGV!
 All Forums
 Share Your NGV Experience and Comments Here
 Share your NGV Experience & Testimonial Here
 NGV Putra weekly CNG fuel bill RM15,If petrol RM91
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 24/01/2008 :  6:11:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On 10 January 2008, I took delivery of my 1999 model year Proton Putra from DrX after it's conversion to NGV (Natural Gas Vehicle)with a sequential kit @ RM7k+ made up of a Landi Renzo NG 2-2 large injector + a 55-litre semi -composite cylinder + TAP (when the stock arrives).

After driving the Putra for a couple of days, DrX wanted me to take a drive with him, so that he can check whether the car's engine parameters are correct or not especially when running on CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) mode. No changes or tweakings were necessary as the parameters, when in CNG mode, were in harmony with the petrol mode. However, I noticed that there is a 10% difference in pick-up from standstill. The difference in pickup when the car is traveling at 30kmh & above is perhaps 3~5%. Not tested on hill climbing yet, but will do it soon by driving up to the Thean Hou Temple off Jalan Lornie.

I think with TAP, it would narrow down the differences substantially, if not totally eliminate it.

Problems! Yes! Temperature. When running on petrol, the car did not encounter any rising temperature problem, but it happened on CNG mode. Why? The car's thermostat and radiator cap are still the original ones (read: 9 years old).

Problem solved by changing both of them.

On delivery,, the cylinder came with CNG, but I didn't gather any info.


Gathered info only from 2nd tankful.
Location: Selayang -pressure 250bar-RM 8.03-(with still 1 bar in tank when refilling)- 130km

3rd tankful.
Location: Kepong- pressure -200bar -RM 6.80-(red light filling)-100km

4th tankful.
Location: Jln Klang Lama- pressure 230bar- RM 8.32 (with still 1 bar in tank when refilling)-110km

5th tankful.
Location: Taman Billion-pressure 250bar- RM 6.98- 1st bar travelled 29kms- (with still 1 bar left in tank when refilling)


After having gone through this exercise, I think my car's CNG consumption is approx. 10~12km per litre based on casual driving + minimun uphill travel and the most important thing is I'm having a smooth ride to $aving$ on CNG.


Highway Driving-35% / City Driving-65%









Sponsored Links!



Edited by - tnlrandall on 15/06/2008 1:41:18 PM

ykyloveu
Starting NGV Member

NGV:Gathering information
Proton
Waja 1.6
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

5 Posts

Posted - 31/01/2008 :  6:28:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is it necessary to change the radiator cap since u mentioned that...? What is the difference?
I wonder the cap would play such an important rule for the Hijau Car..

Sponsored Links!


Go to Top of Page

sni2007
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Apr 2007
Proton
1.6 XLI (model 1997)
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

152 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2008 :  10:19:06 AM  Show Profile  Send sni2007 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
radiator cap condition very important even using petrol (without ngv kit install).
from my experience, water leak/vapour from radiator cap will increase our engine temperature quickly. If we didn't care about this, maybe will cost us more money when bad thing happen (such as engine overheat, radiator dry etc.)

myself need to change 1 set radiator when water vapour from radiator cap until late noticed my radiator already dry and crack..
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2008 :  9:57:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Dear ykyloveu

As all automobiles are susceptible to heat even when running on petrol, it is imperative that we be aware of the expensive consequence, if one choses to ignore or not do something about it before any BIG problem(s) arises.

I rather settle the problem(s) early, while it's still inexpensive to remedy by changing the thermostat and radiator cap.

Through the 9 years of usage, the springs and rubber components of the thermostat and radiator cap would have deteriorated and would eventually need to be changed even when using petrol as I do not want to pay for expensive repairs.

It's a high price one would have to bear (or grin and bear it), if one choses to ignore the warning sign(s)irrespective whether you are using petrol or CNG.
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2008 :  3:20:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'er,

It's now going to be more than 3 weeks since I started using CNG. So far I've not had the experience of the engine cutting-out (mati), while braking, turning or stopping at traffic light junctions as reported in the forum. The engine idle speed is around 800rpm when using CNG with air-cond off & gear disengaged. With air-cond on & gear engaged it's 600~650rpm.

A tankful of CNG for the Putra 1.8 is confirmed as around RM8.10~8.50 (which is slightly more than 12 litres).

Mileage is as follows based on auto transmission with Power/Economy mode, 1.8 litre engine, DOHC & 55 litres CNG tank :-

Using Power mode - 108~115kms
Noticed that the pickup from standstill or acceleration is very good and power loss is negligible, but the price to pay is heavier consumption.

Using Economy mode - up to 130kms
The pick-up from standstill and power loss are greater when using economy mode,but the mileage improves.

Other factors that I noticed are:-

1. When traveling @ 80kmh, the emergency braking distance is no longer the same. It's as though there is a 40+kg person sitting permanently at the back to be taken into account of during emergency braking. The distance is definitely longer by at least 5~8ft (or maybe more) on dry road condition. Wet road condition, the distance is ????? (sorry, don't know yet- Did not have the opportunity to emergency brake in the wet.

2. The Monroe shock absorbers that my friends complained about being hard is no longer so. Will wait for them to conk-out before replacing them with something more suited for a NGV.




Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  8:16:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers,

As mentioned earlier in my posting, the Monroe shock absorbers (rear) will not last long as they are subjected to a constant load factor. The flexibility is also now somewhat limited as it is now always in compressed mode.

My car like almost all NGV (passenger cars) suffers a low rear end, which can greatly affect driving and braking stability and I'm trying to find the best and ,if possible, long term solution to this problem.

To all NGV gurus and experts in ngvcommunity, I would like to ask these questions.

1. Will changing only the shock absorbers be a short term solution
as the new ones may only last a few months?

2. Is it OK to change the original coil springs to longer ones, but
slightly stronger, be better to support the cylinder's dead
weight thus lightening the workload of the shock absorbers? Has
this been done before? Any problems in stability when traveling at
speed of up to 110kmh on highway? Any difference in braking
performance?

3. Can a rubber damper pad as a add-on help to resolve the low rear
end problem?








Go to Top of Page

abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2008 :  6:01:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bro better changing it to OE Waja gas Abs + spring. I'm using it right now on my wira and now more 40k travel still strong. FYI waja spring only 1 coil longer compared to wira and diameter still same, the best thing it is stock. Maybe persona spring more longer and stronger have to check because persona heavier at the back compared to waja.
Go to Top of Page

leo fiber
Junior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:May 2007
NAZA
citra gs
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

94 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2008 :  7:29:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by abgabas

Bro better changing it to OE Waja gas Abs + spring. I'm using it right now on my wira and now more 40k travel still strong. FYI waja spring only 1 coil longer compared to wira and diameter still same, the best thing it is stock. Maybe persona spring more longer and stronger have to check because persona heavier at the back compared to waja.



hi abgabas,

any idea for my citra , any type absorber can fit in
n how much the cost ?



thanks.
Go to Top of Page

abgabas
Senior NGV Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jun 2006
Proton
Wira 1.5
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

290 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2008 :  10:01:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bro dunno about citra..maybe you can try using thicker bush or change to adjustable absorber. I only know about proton car price..last time got my wira done around rm200 only for new set absober + spring
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2008 :  12:51:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Abgabas,

Thank you very much for the info of changing the shock absorbers + springs. Will definitely look into the info that you have provided.

I would definitely try not to increase the thickness of the coil springs, if possible. A slightly longer one, maybe 2~3 coils longer than the original ones, may or may not be available. Will definitely look for it.

Questions:-
1. Did you change the shock absorbers + springs for front & rear or
just only the rear?

2. Does your car roll more than before when cornering (now & then).
The Putra rolls more than before, so have to take corners slow &
easy until I resolve the suspension's inadequacy).

3. Did you need to do 'something' (upgrade or what) regarding your
car's brakes as the rear end is much heavier now.
(I serviced my brake system + replaced the brake pads with a brand
with a German sounding name. Whether it's genuine 'ceramics' or
not as indicated on the box may not be difficult to tell as it
cost less than RM100.00 per set x 2 wheels, but in the internet
one set from the USA is US$150~300.00).


I think (guessing only) that the compressed coil distance (between compressed & uncompressed)of the Putra is around 2~3 coils length with the cylinder weight of 40+kgs. Do correct me, if I'm wrong.

Regards,



tnlrandall



Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 17/02/2008 :  3:08:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers,

I finally made the decision (16 February 2008) to replace the old Monroe shock absorbers first with GAB sports shock absorbers (Front: Non adjustable; Rear: Adjustable). The performance of the GAB will determine whether there is any necessity to change the rear coil springs at a later date.

H've done some snooping around the spare parts vendors and found that, indeed, there is a coil spring from Mitsubishi that is slightly harder than Putra's original coil spring, but is also 2 coils longer. Whether it's needed in the near future is left to be seen as at present the harder GAB shock absorbers did provide the extra height to totally eliminate the "low rear end" syndrome.

As I did not measure the height (from floor to the edge of the mudguard) of the front and rear wheels before installing the NGV components, I'm not in the position to provide a comparison between 'before and after' installation heights.

I can, however, provide some rough measurements for 'before and after' installing the GAB shock absorbers.

Before installing GAB

Left Right

Front: 24-1/16" 24-1/16"

Rear : 23-1/2" 23-0"


After installing GAB

Left Right

Front: 24 -1/2" 24 -3/8"

Rear : 25 -1/4" 25 -1/4"


One factor that's still a question is "How long can the GAB shock absorbers last". Answer: Don't know at this point in time. Used it for only one day, but can feel that the ride is firmer and with disappeared "low rear end".

Will definitely write more on this subject at a later date as I believe that newbie NGV'ers, i.e. like me, may also be trying to figure out how to get rid of their cars' "low rear end" syndrome, but I do hope that senior or experienced members of the community can also chip in with their comments on this subject.




Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 26/02/2008 :  6:33:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers,

Since this past 1+ month of using CNG, I've been topping up the CNG cylinder with gas in the late mornings - 10~11.30am or early afternoons -12pm~2pm or as and when I like. I found out that the pressure are often in the 200bar or below region i.e. last Sunday the top-up was only RM 6.32 on a near empty cylinder, which gave me approx. 90km of travel for the RM6.32

I've switched to topping up in the mornings. This morning (26 February 2008) at around 9.30am, I was in Jalan Kuari and decided to top-up (still got about +1/2 cylinder of CNG - showing 3 bars)and managed to get RM7.81 worth of CNG. This was due to pumping from a newly arrived CNG tanker. Wonder how much mileage this top-up will give me? It also looks like Petronas will replenish this PSS in the mornings, I think so. The other benefit was, I did not have to wait for my turn to pump as there was no-vehicles-in-front, whereas normally it's a 2~5 vehicles-in-front wait.

However, last week on Thursday, I was around the Selayang area and decided to top-up at the PSS after Batu Caves. There was about 30~40 vehicles (taxis + private vehicles)) waiting for their turn and the time was: 3.15~3.30pm. Checked with a taxi driver, who said that this is the time when the morning shift ends and the morning shift driver will need to top-up before handing the taxi to his/her partner for the next shift . It's the taxi drivers' unspoken law.

Thought that this was the only vehicle crowded PSS, but the story was the same at the other PSS around that area. Did not go to check on the PSS's in Kepong, but believe it would be the same scenario due to the time factor.

Therefore, do not go and top-up your cylinder after 2.30pm as, otherwise, you should expect a HUGE like-minded crowd.



Edited by - tnlrandall on 06/04/2008 7:31:59 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2008 :  6:07:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers

Had my GAB shock absorbers (rear ones) adjusted to a softer ride as they were initially installed with the max. hardness. The ride was very firm, maybe too firm, as I had to travel a short distance over bumpy ground in an open-air carpark.

When going over every little stone on an unpaved road, the jarring effect will be accentuated by the max. hardness of the shocks. With the softer shocks, I could easily go through the same unpaved road at a much faster speed and the effects were very muted even with a 40+kgs cylinder sitting at the back.

The adjustment involves about 10 turns of the 2 nuts - downwards. Cannot dismiss the possibility of having to do further adjustments in the near future to get the correct firmness.

There was also not much differences between the front & rear heights (Ref: my post dated 17/02/2008 for details) even with the softer shock absorbers.

Edited by - tnlrandall on 01/03/2008 6:12:59 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  9:46:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers,

Be very cautious since any car more than 4 years old would have a high incidence of engine overheating when running on CNG as a fuel. This can be expected as all components that make up the 'Cooling System' have their own life expectancy even when running only on petrol.

A component may already be on the verge of failure while running on petrol, but may immediately fail when running on CNG due to the much higher temperature i.e. my Proton Putra's thermostat and radiator cap.

The components are:-

1.Radiator 2.Water pump 3.Thermostat 4.Radiator cap 5.Rubber hoses

All these components must be in good condition for you to enjoy a trouble free CNG fueled motoring experience.

When my Proton Putra experienced rising water temperature, it was traced to the very old (9 years old) thermostat and radiator cap. Do take note that radiator caps also come in different pressure ratings. I initially changed to one that have a rating of 0.9kg/cm2 (88kPa), but it did not perform as expected. Upgraded to one with a rating of 1.1kg/cm2 (108kPa)and was satisfied with it's performance so far. Am still monitoring the temperature by keeping an eye on the temperature gauge especially when caught in traffic snarl-up situations.

Buy only genuine radiator caps from reputable manufacturers and not imitations/fakes to avoid unnecessary trouble.

If it's not too troublesome, it's good practice to check the water level in the radiator spare tank every few days or at least once a week depending on how good the condition of the cooling system is in.

Be sure. Don't be sorry. It will cost a lot of $$$$$$ to be sorry.



Edited by - tnlrandall on 05/03/2008 11:09:54 AM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2008 :  12:40:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers,

How many motorists will even bother to ask a mechanic to check their car's front and rear suspension system? Almost all (me included) take it for granted that it can last forever or as long as I don't see it, it must be in good condition.

That's what I felt about my own car's suspension system. It was while installing the GAB shock absorber that the mechanic noticed that my car's rear (driver's side) lower arm (9 years old) was in dire straits. In other words, it can no longer perform it's function satisfactorily.

I did notice since November 2007, which was about 2+ months before I installed the CNG kit, that each time I switched lane on the highway there is a sound that sounds like "cluk" in unison with a slight 'jerk'.

After installing the CNG kit and with the 40+kgs cylinder sitting in the boot, the 'jerk' became more pronounced.

The truth is, each component in the suspension system have their own individual life expectancy and it looks as though my rear right-hand-side lower arm had seen better days and is due for a change.

I also asked the mechanic to check the front suspension system, which was duly confirmed as 'in good working order'.




Edited by - tnlrandall on 07/03/2008 11:27:02 AM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2008 :  3:25:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Friends & NGV'ers,

The next-in-line system in the car that may also not receive consistent care is the 'Brake'. While it is normal for it to be serviced by changing the brake fluid, it is just as important to change the brake pad(s). Has it ever occured to you that the 'thickness' of the brake pads will also play an important and crucial part in bringing the car to a safe and controllable stop during emergency braking especially in the wet.

I personally had the experience of a 'not so effective stop' when emergency braking (Refer: my posting of 02/02/2008) where my car needed extra stopping distance.

This was due to the uneven thickness of the front and rear brake pads.

1. Front brake pad's thickness-1/4"

2. Rear brake pad's thickness - 1/8"

Under this uneven thickness situation, the Front brake pads will start to stop the front wheels about 1~2 (maybe even 3) seconds and with greater pressure applied before the Rear brake pads can even start to do it's job of stopping the rear wheels. With the extra 40+kgs weight sitting in the boot, it becomes a no-brainer that extra distance is needed to stop the car. This is how one can become an incorrigible rear end kisser and having to pay RM300.00 per kiss.

I dread to think what would have happened, if I had driven my car at 130kmh (or faster and in the wet) that day instead of obeying the law and driving at 80kmh on a dry road. I can imagine my car's tail-end wanting desperately to catch up with the front-end in an uncontrollable right hand or left hand spin.

No sane person will want this to happen and this situation can be prevented from happening with due care, patience and above all; obeying the law, when driving.



Edited by - tnlrandall on 30/03/2008 4:15:47 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 15/03/2008 :  4:15:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To:- Dear All Potential NGV’ers,

I think that a reader after having read my above postings, may make him/her more eager to use or may just turn him/her off from using CNG as an alternative fuel. But, before, being afraid of using CNG as your alternative fuel, please consider the rationale behind my own decision(s) to use it based on my objective of ; ‘Reducing my petrol (fuel) expenditure as much as possible’.

My car being a Proton Putra comes with a 1,834cc DOHC engine and I opted for an auto gearbox variant. Before converting it to a NGV, my Putra experienced high fuel consumption as the car gets older, where before conversion, RM 65.00 (RM 91.39 after 04/06/08), which is equivalent to 33.85 litres will only give me a mileage of 200kms (city) and 230kms (highway), which works out to 32.50¢ (45.69¢ after 4/6/08) and 28.26¢ (39.73¢ after 4/6/08) per km. Using either ‘Power’ or ‘Economy’ mode will also affect the total mileage accordingly. I personally prefer the ‘POWER’ mode as one can experience good pickup coupled with negligible power loss.

After conversion, I only need to spend RM 15.00 (22.06 litres x RM0.68 per litre) per week on CNG (+ another RM2~4.00 worth of petrol), which will allow me to travel 210kms @7.15¢ per km ~240 kms @ 6.25¢ per km depending on whether it’s more city or highway/power or economy mode driving. Wait a minute! why is petrol still being used as CNG had now replaced it? Petrol is still needed to start the car and will change-over to CNG as soon as the engine reaches it’s parameter of temperature + predetermined RPM. The change-over from petrol to CNG and vice versa is ‘automatic’ for EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection)cars, but will have to be done ‘manually’ for carbureted ones.

$aving$ achieved for me are, therefore, RM 50.00 when petrol was being sold @ RM1.92 per litre before 04 June 2008 and RM 76.00 @ RM 2.70 per litre after 04 June 2008. But, how much $aving$, when based on my usage of 33.85 litres per week can be achieved.

A simple calculation will illustrate the $aving$ that can be achieved. And what $$$ that was paid to purchase and install the CNG kit can thus be recovered in a few months, 1, 2 or 3 years time depending on the price of petrol and the mileage traveled per month. The other benefit is getting a 25% discount on your road tax.

Example:- Based on 33.85 litres of petrol consumed per week.

1. RM 1.92/litre-$aving$ @ RM 50.00 per week x 52 weeks=RM 2,600.00 (old selling price for petrol before increase on 04 June 2008)

2. RM 2.70/litre-$aving$ @ RM 76.39 per week x 52 weeks=RM 3,972.28after 04 June 2008


So! Was it worth my while to go through all the trials and tribulations for my 9-year old car as mentioned in my postings. Well! While I can’t say on behalf of anybody else, it is a resounding “YES, YES, YES, IT WAS WORTH IT”. And the second most important factor was, other than rising temperature that was directly caused by using CNG as a fuel which was easily rectified, my car did not experience any other CNG related problems as the conversion was done by Hijau(DrXander).

Will motorists need to pay more for petrol in the near future? Please judge for yourselves as world crude oil prices had already reached US$109.57 on 13/03/2008 and US$110.15 on 15/03/2008 and expected to spike up to US$142.44 and US$143.20 on a one year forecast. How high can it still go? It's a frightening scenario, is it not? But NGV'ers are already insulated from it's effects. ARE YOU????

For the latest - Realtime Crude Oil Price & Fuel price bound to go up
Please visit:- www.ngvcommunity.comhttp://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/80027

Edited by - tnlrandall on 16/06/2008 10:49:48 AM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 21/03/2008 :  5:26:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To: Dear All Potential NGV’ers,

I still remember vividly the ‘Get-you-home’ tip that DrX gave me, when he handed back the Putra keys to me on the afternoon of 10 January 2008.

And this was what he told me;

"In the event the car stalls, when in CNG mode, please restart your car and manually switch to petrol mode to continue your journey”.

Well, I did encounter two incidences that required me to take this course of action. Will relate the two incidences, where the ‘tip’ was successfully implemented for one, but not possible to implement for the other.

Before you get scared of using CNG as an alternative fuel, please read on to find out the actual reasons that caused the problems and what caused them plus the solutions. The first (1st) incident can still happen even if you are 100% on petrol mode.

Incident 1: Not able to change to petrol mode.

Since December 2007, I experienced the first (1st) of the 1~2 seconds delay before the engine burst into life on turning the key. This warning was repeated on two other occasions, but I chose to ignore it. On 15 February, while I was driving in the vicinity of KLCC, my car’s engine stalled (mati). Try as I may, I could not restart the car to change it to petrol mode as there was not even a lighted icon showing, when I turned the ignition on. There’s no way that I can change to petrol mode since I cannot even get the car started.

But that was a clear indication that the problem has something to do with the electricity supply involving either the battery or alternator and is not CNG related. It was traced to arun-down (flat) 2 year old battery. After a battery change by my regular mechanic, the engine started without any problems.

Warning: Do not allow your regular mechanic to mess around with the CNG/NGV system as there’s a 90% chance that they will cause it to malfunction and, you, as the car owner will have to bear the consequence and, possibly, fork out $$$ to undo the damage.

Continued on next page-


Edited by - tnlrandall on 21/03/2008 5:38:35 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 21/03/2008 :  5:33:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Continued from previous page-

Incident 2:- Able to change to petrol mode

Sometime around the 4th week of February 2008, I thought that I should change the engine’s lubrication oil from a non-CNG compatible grade to one that is compatible. After the lubrication oil change was completed, I asked my regular mechanic to remove the air-filter to give it a good dusting by blowing it with high pressured air.

Putting the air filter back into it’s rightful place was not a problem, but plugging back the cable which have all the sensor(s) to monitor the air was not as easy as it looks as the two components have mating parts of very tight tolerance in order to waterproof it. And because of this, the mechanic could not get the two parts to ‘lock’ properly and instead it was only held together by the tight tolerance. I knew about that, but did not give it much thought.

Came Monday, the cable popped-out and the car stalled at a traffic light junction while on CNG mode. Am I glad that the car can be restarted and driven in petrol mode, albeit; with very low engine rev., whereby I managed to drive all the way to my installer, Hijau, as I thought it was a CNG related problem. The cause of the engine stalling was easily identified with a ‘Hanatech Multiscan Plus Diagnostic Tool’. Once identified it was easily remedied by making sure that the two components were accurately plugged in as well as mated properly and securely this time.

What lessons did I manage to derive from these incidences?


Lesson 1:
I’m glad I did not give the management of Hijau a big piece of my mind (marah kuat2), when these two problems cropped up, thinking they are CNG related as, otherwise, I would have ended up looking like a loud-mouthed empty headed idiot as these two problems were not due to any shortcomings in their workmanship or quality of equipment supplied.

Lesson 2:
While the first problem managed to manifest itself because of my attitude of ‘if it’s not broken yet, why fix it’. The second problem was due to ‘a lax attitude in enforcing a high standard’ from my regular mechanic as I should have insisted that he mated the two parts properly. These were SELF INFLICTED problems. No ‘IF’s’, no ‘BUT’s’, no Excuses & no finger pointing. It was caused by my own mistake and negligence.


Edited by - tnlrandall on 22/03/2008 12:56:54 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 28/03/2008 :  2:01:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To:- Dear All Potential NGV’ers,

Do you know how many kilometers can one get from a 55-litre cylinder topped up with Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) to the maximum?

Well, it’s not that easy to answer this tricky question as there are a lot of variables to be considered that can also deplete CNG from the cylinder without contributing to the total mileage count and, of course, the pump pressure will dictate to a larger extent what sort of mileage a car can obtain plus other factors.

An example is my Proton Putra (1,834cc, DOHC, Auto, power/economy mode & 55litre CNG cylinder), which was estimated as 10km/litre (city) & 12km/litre (highway) (Refer: my posting dated 24/01/2008). However, this does not take into account city driving in situations such as bumper-to-bumper traffic snarl-ups, stopping/waiting at traffic light junctions & etc. as these are also CNG sapping non-mileage contributing realities. Heavy-footed-driving habits + using ‘power’ mode instead of ‘economy’ mode & etc. should also be included. These are some of the ‘plus other factors’ mentioned earlier.

It would be ideal, if waiting at traffic light junctions can be reduced to the max. minimum + clear city roads all the way to one’s destination and, then, the 10 km/litre (or maybe can get more) for my Putra is not too far fetched. But that’s too much to hope for unless it’s during the festive periods of Hari Raya, Chinese New Year & etc.

At RM7.50 x2 top-ups =15.00 (11.03 x2=22.06 litre)and, if it's at all possible to get RM 7.50 worth of CNG, I should be getting approximately 110 x 2=220km based on 10km/litre. And as I only travel a maximum of 140km to & fro to my destination for 5 days a week, I would need to top up the cylinder 2x per week. Three top-ups would be required for travel beyond the 210~220km limit.

However, dreaming is one thing and the real world is another as the Petronas Service Station (PSS)(a mother & daughter setup (M&D), that I go to can only give me RM 6.00+ per top up (approx. 80+ ~100km) for an empty 55-litre CNG cylinder instead of at least RM7.00+ or even RM 8.00+ (should stop dreaming lah!). This is due to the pump pressure at the PSS that I go to. As I do not have long to wait (2~5 taxis/ private vehicles in front) at this PSS, I do not mind even if I need to do it 3x per week.

Should I opt to go to a PSS in Selayang, where the pressure is stronger (using pipeline instead of M&D setup), I’ll need to travel & waste 32km worth of precious CNG just to get home. It’s the typical; ‘Head you win, tail I lose’ situation.

The maximum that I ever got is RM 8.32 (12.24 litre) from a PSS in Jalan Klang Lama (M&D setup), but it gave me only 110km instead of the estimated 120+ km in mileage due to the mainly city driving situation, whereas I got 130km (more highway than city driving)) from a RM 8.03 top up in Selayang (pipeline setup).

CONFUSED! Me too!

A confirmed maximum mileage for per litre of CNG seems to be a moving target for me.

As I mentioned earlier, as there are so many variables in this equation, it is near impossible to accurately pin down the actual mileage of any vehicle to the “T”. Nevertheless, for my car; a Proton Putra, I am still sticking to my earlier estimate of 10km/litre (city) & 12km/litre (highway) but, albeit, now with a "±" factor until I get more info to confirm or contradict it.


Edited by - tnlrandall on 13/04/2008 2:29:09 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  10:46:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To:- Dear All Potential NGV’ers,

On 31st. March 2008, my car experienced erratic idling, which eventually went down so low till the engine stalled even on petrol and as well as CNG mode. While the engine stalling was a nuisance, it did not totally prevent me from continuing my journey. As a stop gap measure to overcome this problem, the air-conditioner needs to be switched off as well as the gear disengaged, when waiting at traffic lights. The air conditioner can be switched on again when the car is on the move.

Called my installer, Hijau, and was informed that this erratic idling problem points to a dirty “throttle body’. Drove my car to my regular mechanic and had the dirty ‘throttle body’ cleaned. In fact, it was chocked with dirt (some already carbonized) that had accumulated for the past 9 years. Reinstalled the ‘cleaned’ throttle body, but the idling was still the same - no difference.

Eventually, it was traced to the malfunction of an electromechanical component of the throttle body, which does not have spare parts as replacement. It can only be purchased as a “fully assembled throttle body”. Very surprised that the ‘throttle body’ for a Proton Putra (1999 model) comes from a Proton Perdana and not a Proton Wira, which is cheaper.

After the replacement, the idling returned to normal with no more engine stalling either on petrol or CNG mode.

With this newly replaced ‘throttle body’, I noticed that my car’s performance had improved and with slightly less CNG consumption to boot. I used to get max. 10km/litre, but, now, gets slightly more than 11km/litre traveling along the same city route. However, confirmation on this improvement in mileage/litre, can only be done after having gone through a few cylinders of CNG. Question: Will the new ‘throttle body’ turn out to be a self-paying component through giving more mileage/litre? I really hope so.

I am not sure whether the ‘throttle body’ died of plain old age (9 years old) or the high temperature of CNG had an indirect effect on the electromechanical component(s) or was it a combination of both factors.

Be warned:- Component failures are an undeniable fact, when using CNG as a fuel due to the high temperature. It is likely that component failures may occur in direct proportion to the age of your car. The older the car is, the more component failures that one should expect to occur, unless one is born under a very lucky star.

I most definitely was not!


Edited by - tnlrandall on 03/04/2008 10:56:15 PM
Go to Top of Page

sohengguan
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Feb 2008
Proton
Iswara 1.5(A)
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

214 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  06:55:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit sohengguan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dear tnlrandall,

Thank you for sharing your experience.
Is this problem applicable to Proton Iswara 1.5 (A)?
If it is applicable to all vehicle (with or without NGV), then I would assume this is the normal wear and tear when the component reaches it's lifespan. If we're lucky, we just need to service the part. Otherwise, a replacement is required.

Speaking of which, I notice something about vehicle RPM.
Temperature level: Very cool - Cool - Average - Hot - Very hot
If the temperature is between very cool and cool, the RPM is low.
If the temperature is between cool and average, the RPM is normal.
If you run the vehicle for long enough, the RPM will be slightly higher than normal.
Why does it behave this way? Is this normal?
Fortunately, my vehicle does not go above average temperature.
Go to Top of Page

kjlee
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2005
Toyota
corona 2.0 gli (1993)
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

138 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  12:04:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear tnlrandall,

i read with much interest your comment on "I am not sure whether the ‘throttle body’ died of plain old age (9 years old) or the high temperature of CNG had an indirect effect on the electromechanical component(s) or was it a combination of both factors. i would think that both factors are of concern to older cars. i have discussed excessive heat in the engine compartment issue with my regular mechanic. He said that many modified engines (eg turbo)have the problem and some workshops install ventilation hoods on the bonnets. the hoods are placed nearest to the exhaust manifold where most heating comes from. with the extra ventilation, the various components in the engine bay will not be so hot. would welcome comments on this issue.

Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  3:30:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear sohengguan,

I was told that Proton Iswara being a non-fuel injection car does not have a throttle body.

To be able to get away with just a service (cleaning) would depend on which part of the throttle body is malfunctioning. If it’s one of the electromechanical part, then expect a complete replacement as it's not possible to buy it separated from the main part.

“Your comment: The other thing about running a car long enough, the rpm will be slightly higher than normal.”

Unless you drive on the PLUS highway every day at 110km from KL~Seramban~KL or any other highways, then the car’s idling will be in excellent condition. But, if you are only able to drive at speeds of 80~90km for a short distance of about 5km on the highway and have to wait at 3~4 traffic lights to get to your destination & back on a daily basis, then idling deterioration cannot be unexpected.

Friends of mine, who are fast drivers, had advised me to push my car every now and then to prevent a ‘lethargic’ engine syndrome from forming. But I find this suggestion very unpalatable as I would then have to drive at speeds of 130~150kmh to be able to get 4000~5000rpm using top (4th) gear.

Caution: Do not rev. your car’s engine to 4000~5000rpm, while it’s in a stationary position as there’s every possibility of it suffering heavy damage(s) since there’s no load acting on it. I have done this sort of thing before and been warned not to do it anymore unless I’m prepared to come out with $$$$$$$$$ to repair the damage(s).

The other alternative is to use a lower gear to achieve the desired engine speed of 4000~5000 rpm without having to reach speeds of 130~150kmh, but, unfortunately, I don’t have much chance of traveling on the PLUS highway. Most of my travels are within city limits.

The most important factor is still to obtain the optimum tuning that money can buy to avoid erratic engine behavior and to use high engine revs. "on a as and when required basis", which should be treated as a bonus cure.

Being able to get the optimum tuning will also depend on how ‘original’ your CNG kit is. No ‘Malaysia boleh’ mixer, no mineral bottle cut-outs & etc. Even a rocket scientist will not be able to help, if the CNG kit is a mix and match affair.


Regards,



tnlrandall


Edited by - tnlrandall on 06/04/2008 8:13:18 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  4:19:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear kjlee,

I believe that a lot of NGV’ers, which includes me too, had fallen victim to the high temperature emanated through using CNG as a fuel.

This is one subject that ngvcommunity members should strive to be better acquainted with in order to solve this high temperature problem. This high temperature from CNG usage is the automobile industry’s proverbial ‘bull in the china shop’ and will try to wreck everything it touches.

I, too, have seen some sporty looking cars with bolt-on ventilation contraption, but, what are the pros and cons?

1. Is it legal? JPJ, Insurance & etc.
2. How much will it cost?
3. Will water leak into the engine compartment as holes are cut into
the bonnet itself?
4. How effective is it?
5. Any other alternative(s) methods?

Let’s all look for a possible solution that’s reasonably priced and effective, while keeping the bolt-on method in view as a back-up in case we fail to come up with something suitable.


Regards,



tnlrandall

Go to Top of Page

kjlee
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2005
Toyota
corona 2.0 gli (1993)
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

138 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  8:18:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thanks tnlrandall for your response.

let us hear what the other NGV’ers have got say about this issue of excessive heat and their opinion on possible options in countering the problem as well as the legality/cost aspects of the matter.

having said the above, i must admit that i have not encountered any system failure in the engine compartment after using ngv for over 2 1/2 years. however, i always feel uncomfortable with the heat accumulated at certain air trapped areas. it would be best if some thing simple could be done to reduce engine bay heat.

Edited by - kjlee on 05/04/2008 12:27:46 PM
Go to Top of Page

sohengguan
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Feb 2008
Proton
Iswara 1.5(A)
(Carburetor)

Malaysia

214 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  10:18:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit sohengguan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
thanks tnlrandall for your response.

my NGV kit is original (comes in a box and manuals)

since most installers will tell you that there's no need to install TAP, which happens to me.
the temporary alternative would be to use the cut-out mineral bottle as the air choker.
this will help improve performance, especially pickup.

I've got a green light from my installer that they will install the TAP for me (as recommended by Galileo HQ)
Unfortunately, they ran out of stock...so I'll have to wait.
Hope the TAP will solve all my problems...
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  12:58:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear sohengguan and NGV'ers,

Please post your comments on the performance of TAP for the benefit of all members of ngvcommunity, once it is installed into your car.

In fact, I'm still waiting for my car's TAP. Therefore, cannot comment on it's performance, but from some write-ups that I came across in the internet that I've read, the results point to 'good'.

However, I hope that ngvcommunity members, who already had TAP installed will post their comments for everybody's benefit. It can be 'good' or 'bad' news, just let us know.

Regards,



tnlrandall
Go to Top of Page

kjlee
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Oct 2005
Toyota
corona 2.0 gli (1993)
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

138 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  2:51:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear tnlrandall,

there have been many comments on TAP in this forum. do a word search on "TAP". i have written on this matter some time ago. both my cars are using TAPs (galileo and PVR - fuel injection type) and i feel strongly that it is a necessary item (not an option) in a NGV system. it is to get the best performance out of ngv setup. u may (without TAP) manually advance the ignition timing on the distributor to cater for proper combustion of ngv (most iswara taxis are using this setting) ...but switching to petrol on this advance setting may not be advisable.

Edited by - kjlee on 05/04/2008 2:59:04 PM
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  3:27:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear kjlee,

Thank you for pointing out to me that there are already many articles written on TAP in the forum.

Will definitely check it up.


Regards,


tnlrandall
Go to Top of Page

tnlrandall
Average Member

NGV:Yes
Since:Jan 2008
Proton
Putra 1.8
(Fuel Injection)

Malaysia

237 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2008 :  12:57:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To:- Dear All Potential NGV’ers,

Managed to find a couple of interesting articles after rummaging through the internet that may be of interest to all present NGV’ers as well as all potential NGV’ers.

This was what the article from FuelMaker (www.cngaz.com) had to say.

SAFETY

CNG, unlike, gasoline (petrol) dissipates into the atmosphere in the event of an accident. Gasoline (petrol) pools on the ground creating a fire hazard.

The fuel storage cylinders used in Natural Gas Vehicles (NGV) are much stronger than gasoline fuel tanks. The design of NGV cylinders are subjected to a number of Federally required “severe abuse” tests., such as heat and pressure extremes, gunfire, collision and fires.

NGV fuel systems are “sealed” which prevents any spills or evaporative losses. Even if a leak were to occur in an NGV fuel system, the natural gas would dissipate into the atmosphere because it is lighter than air.

Natural gas (CNG) is not toxic or corrosive and will not contaminate ground water. Natural gas produces no significant aldehydes or other air toxins, which are a concern in gasoline and some other alternative fuels.

TEMPERATURE

Natural gas (CNG) has a high ignition temperature, about 1,200ºF (650ºC), compared with about 600ºF (275 ºC) for gasoline.

Natural gas also has a narrow range of flammability that is, in concentration in air below about 5% and above about 15%, natural gas will not burn. The high ignition temperature and limited flammability range make accidental ignition or combustion of natural gas unlikely.


With an ignition temperature of 1200ºF for CNG, which is more than 2x that of gasoline (petrol), it is a no-brainer why our cars are experiencing higher temperature under the bonnet. .NGV’ers & all potential NGV’ers will have to judge for themselves on how “hot” the engine compartment can become, if CNG is used as a fuel instead of petrol (gasoline).

Indeed, our appreciation & thanks to FuelMaker and ngvc for these excellent articles, which is helping to answer the question of “How hot is CNG, when compared to gasoline (petrol)”.

If you would like to know more, please click the link(s)for the info:-

1. http://www.cngaz.com/info.html

2. http://www.ngvc.org/tech_data/techbulletin2.html

Happy reading!

Regards,


tnlrandall


Edited by - tnlrandall on 06/04/2008 1:01:55 PM
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Related Topics in NGV, Share it and RSS Feed Community :- 
Click here to find out more related topic about NGV Putra weekly CNG fuel bill RM15,If petrol RM91

AddThis Feed Button

Banner Exchange
Showing Banner 1 of 3
Support Children with Dyslexic in Malaysia. Visit http://www.dyslexia-swk.comIf you interested to exchange your banner here, please click here. Banner will be randomly displayed.


If you wish to promote NGV Community in your personal website, please copy the following code into your website. Sample Banner


Sponsored Links!





NGV Community Forum © 2006-2014 Copyright Hydrotech Enterprise - http://www.hydrotechmy.com Go To Top Of Page
This NGV page was generated in 0.28 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000
View NGV Stats Best Malaysian Sites